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[Took place at Paradise Comics Toronto Comicon.
April 29th, 2005.]
Jerry Robinson created both The Joker and Robin
the Boy Wonder. He spent 20 years drawing comics
before becoming a political cartoonist. He was
also instrumental in getting a settlement from DC
Comics in the 1970's for the creators of Superman,
Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. Part of his story
and this interview surrounds his role as it is
described in the recent critically acclaimed book
Men of Tomorrow by Gerard Jones.
Jamie:
Jerry Robinson:
Jamie:
Jerry:
A long time ago. Before you were ever even
thought of (laughter).
Jamie:
Jerry:
Oh boy, my you're a youngster. [Note: I'm
30 years old, but Robinson has full rights to call
me a youngster.]
Jamie:
What did you do prior to assisting Bob Kane
on Batman?
Jerry:
Well, nothing professionally. I started
right in on Batman. I came to New York at 17 and
was going to college. I started with Bob in that
same year in 1939. I just did it to earn my way
through college. Little did I know I'd still be
talking about it 60 some years later (laughter).
Jamie:
Did you say you met Bob through college?
Jerry:
No, no. I met Bob through a strange
circumstance. I had sold ice cream after I had
graduated high school, in the summer before going
to college, to earn enough for the first year, or
semester. I was very light, only 98 pounds. On the
track team as a matter of fact, very slight,
almost as slight as yourself. So peddling Ice
Cream on the bicycle all summer on the cart I
dropped to probably no more than 78 pounds. Then
my mother insisted I take $25 dollars, that's all
it took, to go up to the mountains to the resort
and she said, "fatten up." She was afraid I
wouldn't survive the first semester in college
(laughter).
Just by sheer chance, I went out to a tennis court
one day and I was wearing a white painters jacket
and at the time you decorated them. So I had
cartoons all over mine. I had drawn for my high
school paper but that was my only involvement in
cartooning. So I was wearing that painters jacket
as a tennis jacket and I was trying to find a
partner at the tennis court. Tennis was a family
sport, my brothers were champion players. So I was
standing there looking for a partner and felt a
tap on my shoulder and heard "Who did those
drawings?" I thought I was going to be arrested or
something (laughter).
I turned around and said "I did." "Well, those are
pretty good. I just started a new feature called
Batman and the 1st issue is on the stands. If you
come with me I'll show you." We went down to the
village and bought a copy. I was 17, he was about
24. He said, "If you come to New York, you've got
a job. I need somebody to help me on Batman."
I was going to go to Syracuse College, but I had
also luckily applied to Columbia. I quickly called
Columbia to see if my application was still good,
which it was, then I called Syracuse and told them
I was not coming. I called my parents and told
them I'm not coming home, I'm going right to New
York as I had a job. I went to Columbia and began
moonlighting on Batman.
Jamie:
So it was Bob Kane you met at the resort?
Jerry:
Yes, he was the one that tapped my on the
shoulder. Then I met Bill Finger.
Jamie:
Yes, I was about to ask about him as well.
What was he like and how did you meet him?
Jerry:
Well, I met him through Bob as he wrote the
scripts. He and Bob really co-created Batman.
Jamie:
Jerry:
Unfortunately, only Bob's name is on it. I
started an award for Finger, similar to the
Shuster Awards here that will be given at San
Diego this year. It's The Bill Finger Award and
this will be the first year.
Jamie:
Jerry:
Bill never got credit. He died broke. It's
a tragedy.
Jamie:
Yeah, that's what I heard. Do you have any
photos of him by any chance?
Jerry:
I don't, we didn't take pictures at the
time. There are some that exist and have been
published.
Jamie:
I've seen one, but that's it.
Jerry:
I've only seen two or three at the most,
different shots. One he's playing Golf, one is a
head shot.
Jamie:
Yeah, I've seen one where it looks like he
has a painters cap on and he's looking sideways.
Jerry:
Yeah. He was a great guy and was really a
mentor of mine. He was 24 or 25 when I was 17. I
was coming from a little town to New York for the
first time in my life. I was going to University
and going to my room at night and drawing all
night. He took me around New York, showed me
museums, foreign films, plays. He was very well
read and a well rounded guy. He was my first
cultural mentor.
Jamie:
Jerry:
Well Bob was.. he had a great flair in his
drawings. He was a comic artist before starting
Batman, so it was a very difficult transition for
him to go through, from comic art to doing more
realism. So he struggled with the art. I think
it's easier to go the other way around. I started
out doing illustration and later I did a humor
strip that went for 17 years through syndication.
That was an easy transition, being able to draw
realistically to drawing humor. Not so easy the
other way around.
Jamie:
How long did you work on Batman?
Jerry:
I think from 1939 to 1947.
Jamie:
Jerry:
Well, I wanted to do something more.
Something under my own name. I wanted to do more
creative writing and do different things. I never
liked to continue to do something for too long. I
like new challenges. I went on to do a lot of
different comic strips. I partnered with Mort
Meskin, we did strips for DC and other publishers.
We did Johnny Quick, Vigilante, The Black Terror,
Fighting Yank. Then I worked with Stan Lee for 10
years. I did a lot of stuff during the 50's,
crime, science fiction, war, which I enjoyed as
each book was a different challenge.
Jamie:
Yeah, they published everything.
Jerry:
Yes. I really wanted to be a political
cartoonist, so around 1961 I quit to do political
cartoons. I did them for 33 years and I wrote and
drew my own feature. That was 6 days a week and it
was syndicated throughout the US and abroad. In
between I was a book illustrator, did books and
advertising. I curated a lot of shows (at
museums). I traveled around the world, went to
about 43 different countries. Did a lot of
exhibitions and was a part of international
juries. So it's been a very interesting and
satisfying career.
Jamie:
I imagine so. I know for part of that
career you went to the National Cartoonists
Society. I understand you became the President at
one point?
Jerry:
Yes I served as President of the National
Cartoonists Society and later on became an
editorial cartoonist and served as President of
the Association of American Editorial Cartoonists.
A lot of Canadians belong to that.
Jamie:
Yes, we have a strong group of political
cartoonists.
Jerry:
Very strong, yes. I have an International
Newspaper Syndicate (called Cartoonists & Writers
Syndicate) that started in 1979 and we represent
the leading cartoonists in some 75 countries now.
Including many Canadians I just visited, like
Brian Gable, Bado (Guy Badeaux), all top, top
cartoonists, world class. Dave Anderson of the
National Post, Patrick Corrigan of the Star, Andy
Donato of the Sun, all great cartoonists and
others too. Roy Peterson in Vancouver, Dale
Cummings from Winnipeg. For a country of this
population it has an extraordinary number of great
cartoonists. I'm very, very pleased to have them
in my syndicate.
Jamie:
Now the National Cartoonists Society, what
is that, is it a bargaining agent or a social
society?
Jerry:
No. We did have committees and took up
professional issues, but it wasn't an union. It
was a professional society for professionals, we
discussed professional problems. We exchanged
ideas and met socially as well.
It was started during world war one, when a number
of cartoonists started going around entertaining
at hospitals for wounded soldiers. They one of
them said "Gee, we ought to form a more organized
group." There was about 6 or 8 of them to begin
with and it grew to 3500 today. There was Milton
Caniff and Rube Goldberg and other popular people,
mostly strip cartoonists it started with, then
other genres joined then, later editorial
cartoonists as well. The editorial cartoonists had
their own problems and later on they formed their
own organization, The Association of American
Editorial Cartoonists. A lot of them belong to
both. The NCS is like the parent organization. The
Magazine association which I mentioned earlier
also formed their own group to discuss their own
problems. But NCS is still like a parent and it's
still running.
Jamie:
Did you ever do any comic strips?
Jerry:
I did one that went for several years.
Called Jet Scott, it was a science adventure. I
also helped friends on various ones; none that
were my creations.
Jamie:
Jerry:
Yes, just for periods of time when they
needed me. On Jet Scott I did daily and Sundays.
Jamie:
I was wondering if you read the book Men of
Tomorrow by Gerard Jones?
Jerry:
Jamie:
Your name appears in there quite a bit
towards the end.
Jerry:
Gerard interviewed me quite a bit for the
book. It was a remarkable book. He did great deal
of research.
Jamie:
Jerry:
There were things there that I didn't know
myself (laughter). I would recommend the book.
Also Kavalier and Clay.
Jamie:
Yeah, it's fictionalized --
Jerry:
Jamie:
But a lot of it rings true.
Jerry:
I met Michael Chabon in San Diego last
year. I had the honor of getting elected to the
Hall of Fame at the Eisner Awards. Along with
Jules Feiffer and Al Capp.
Jamie:
Jerry:
Michael had gave the keynote address, he's
a very charming man and really bright.
Jamie:
How familiar are you with Siegel's and
Shuster's past, I have some questions but I don't
know if you would know about them.
Jerry:
Jamie:
Okay, there is a story about either Siegel
or Shuster was a mailman and they had to deliver
something to DC's offices and that demoralized the
staff at DC and somebody gave them a tip or and
told them not to come back?
Jerry:
No that is a mix of two different stories.
Siegel did become a mailman, he had a writers
block from the truama of losing Superman. He would
walk by a newsstand and see Superman all over the
place, there, in movies, etc.. and he would
literally get sick to his stomach. He couldn't
write anymore but he had to support his wife and
child. There was a government agency he worked at,
sorting mail, he wasn't a mailman on the street.
It was a very simple, non creative job. It's what
he had been reduced to.
And Joe, he was certifiably blind, he had bad
eyesight even when I first knew him. So he
couldn't draw. He was supported by his brother but
he got a job as a messenger. He delivered packages
like mail and one time, he did by chance have to
deliver something to DC Comics . . . Joe told me that
story himself.
Jamie:
Okay, so it was Joe then. That's something
I wanted to clear up as I heard two different
stories about that.
Jamie:
In the 50's Siegel went back to work for DC
and in the 60's he stopped. I heard he tried to
copyright Superpersons or something like that. Do
you know anything about that?
Jerry:
Well I know it was a long drawn out legal
battle over the years. He (Siegel) had really
created a Frankenstien (DC) and they could afford
to hire the top lawyers and draw out the
negotiations for years and he couldn't afford to
do it. From time to time they sued them and it
just dragged on with more lawyers. It was a sad
time for them.
Jamie:
Do you know exactly why he left DC in the
60s?
Jerry:
In the 60's, no I don't know.
Jamie:
Jerry:
I know originally they were cut off once
they had started the suit. They were fired and
they had no income. I know they had a
rapprochement for a period of time but it was
nothing substantial.
Jamie:
And there was another court battle in the
70s. It either went to a district court or to the
Supreme Court...?
Jerry:
Well, it went through a number of courts
but not to the Supreme Court. It never got to that
level. It was always lost in lower courts.
Jamie:
Jerry:
I think if they brought suit under the
proper clause, which is very involved technically,
but conceivably they might have won in the Supreme
Court. But they didn't have the wares at the time.
Jerry had already had a heart attack. In fact, the
night before we had settled it Jerry had ordered
me to settle it. I couldn't tell the other side
because then we'd lose our leverage, but he was
afraid he wouldn't survive the negotiations. He
wanted to leave his wife and child with some
security.
Jamie:
Okay do you know what state it the case was
filed in . . . was it New York?
Jerry:
Yes, they were all filed in New York State.
I can't tell you what level it stopped at, but
they never won, either because of technicalities
or it wasn't written up properly or they didn't
have good representation. The initial error was at
the very beginning when they sold it but it wasn't
filed properly, the details would be too long, but
they might have won on other grounds. But it never
went to the Supreme Court. I don't think a jury
ever got to hear it. So it was drawn out, you are
talking about billions of dollars when it comes to
Superman.
Jamie:
During the court case, I believe Carmine
Infantino was the publisher of DC Comics at the
time.
Jerry:
Jamie:
Where was he in all this?
Jerry:
As far as I know he was never involved. We
never dealt with him. They were owned by Time
Warner and we negotiated with Time Warner, their
vice president and their lawyers.
Jamie:
In the 70s, Jerry wrote out a 10 page
letter and apparently sent it out to everybody and
it helped get the media on his side initially.
Jerry:
He did do that, but he didn't get much
headway. The media discarded him. It was only
after he got on the Tom Snyder show and that was
national, and got some of us professionals
involved to help him with it did it start to go
somewhere. That gave us the leverage we needed to
negotiate with Time Warner. Also the movie was
coming out at that time and that gave us leverage
as well.
Jamie:
About that letter, do you know if Jerry
wrote that during the court case or after it? Men
of Tomorrow is a bit murky with that.
Jerry:
Well, it was probably written in between
court cases. Siegel was frustrated as there was
no settlement and he didn't get anything. It was
out of desperation he wrote that. He tried a lot
of things. As you can imagine he was very
frustrated and depressed. I mean Superman is one
of the greatest properties in the 20th Century. He
was stripped of everything and couldn't make money
for his family. And they (Siegel and Shuster) were
both terrific people. I knew them both well. I
even double dated with Shuster (laughter).
Jamie:
There are two stories about Jerry Siegel
appearing on TV, and I don't know which one is
true. There is one, it wasn't mentioned this way
in Men of Tomorrow, where he was in a talk show
audience and he stood up and told everybody that
he was the creator of Superman and he had to make
a living bagging groceries. Apparently you saw
this, was that on the Tom Snyder show?
Jerry:
I remembered that it was the Tom Snyder
Show yes. I saw it yes, I was working late for a
deadline and I heard the name Siegel and Superman
and I looked up and that was the first time I was
aware of the their plight. I had thought they had
made a settlement in the previous years. I was
very upset in hearing that and immediately called
Jerry in California and begun to work on restoring
their rights. Neal Adams had also called them and
we teamed up. I got the National Cartoonist
Society, I wrote up.. what you would call a
declaration of support. The Society had brought
Siegel and Shuster in and I had went over to the
Society of Magazine Cartoonists, they are an
organization filled with mostly New Yorker and
humor type cartoonists and they gave me the floor.
It so happened it was all on the same day so I
raced over, addressed them on their plight and
they passed the same resolution unanimously. I
went to other organizations, the screen writers
and called all the names I knew like celebrities like Jules Feiffer and others
there was this one science fiction writer . . .
Jamie:
Jerry:
No, I know Harlan and he would have, but I
didn't know him at the time.
Jamie:
I believe the names are in Men of Tomorrow.
Jerry:
Maybe, I don't think they got all of them,
actually. But what happened after the signing and
we had a celebration at my apartment and Siegel
and Shuster were over and I met Eli Wallach and
his wife on the way there. Not that they did
anything, when they heard about it they asked
"what can we do?" and I told them we just got done
the signing and that's how they ended up being
there. So there was Jules Feiffer and everybody
was there. We had promised to give the scoop of
the signing to Walter Cronkite for his program, he
was the top newscaster. So we all gathered in
front of the TV at that time. We had broke out the
bottle of champagne waiting for him to announce
it. At the very end of the show they had a sign
and an animated Superman in the background flying
across the screen and he said "At last, truth,
justice and the American way has won." We all
toasted and everybody was crying and it was a very
moving moment.
Jamie:
That happened right after the settlement?
Jerry:
Jamie:
I know you said you had everybody sign a
declaration, but was there anything legal involved
or like a boycott because I understand Neal was
talking about doing boycotts. Was it anything like
that or just a show of support?
Jerry:
It was a show of support, we really didn't
have to go to that measure. What I personally did
was use my persuasion on the Vice President of
Time Warner, I called the night before the
settlement in order to restore their names. Time
Warner depends on talent of all kinds, it's a
multi media company, it does movies and
everything. I said look, you are going to get a
lot of bad press. Be aware of what you are doing
if we can't come to a reasonable solution. Restore
their names, their dignity depends on it. So they
finally agreed on it, but that was the night
before the settlement. They were afraid that
restoring their names would give them a claim in
the future.. not that they don't deserve it. They
got a settlement but not what they deserve, they
really should have been multi millionaires.
Jamie:
Jerry:
But they had security for the rest of their
lives, at the time they were both really
destitute.
Jamie:
What do you think about the future of
comics with graphic novels?
Jerry:
Well, the future is unknown, but I think it
has a tremendous future. The comics are in the
hands of creative people and it's a very versatile
media. The parameters keep expanding. Who would
have foreseen the work being done today with
graphic novels, in different mediums at different
levels, computerized works of art? But in my
analysis the creativity and the art is surviving.
The form might change though, technology always
dictates what is going to happen. It happened with
newspaper strips and comic books, it depends on a
confluence of events. I wrote about this in my
book, it would take too long to go into detail,
but that's the bottom line. It took a number of
events and people at the right time and the right
place for it to happen.
Jamie:
Thank you very much for the interview
Jerry.
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