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Max Allen Collins is probably the best writer you never heard of. His
works stretch from comics to novels to screenplays. He has won a
number of awards for his work outside of comics, but inside the industry he's
largely ignored. Among his better remembered works is Ms. Tree done
through Eclipse and DC. He recently wrote a graphic novel called Road to
Perdition that is extremely good and is going to be coming out in early 2001 as a
movie. The movie will star Tom Hanks and be directed by American
Beauty's Sam Mendes and is expected to be a major hit at the box office. In this
interview we ask about Road to Perdition, Ms. Tree and numerous other
topics regarding his future.
Coville:
How long did it take you to research and write Road to Perdition?
Collins:
The research and writing was spread out over at least a four year
period; this was because of the time it took the artist, Richard Piers
Rayner, to turn out his precise, detailed artwork (often working from
research materials I sent to him) (he's in England).
Coville:
How much of Road to Perdition is true? Which parts did you have to
fill in with your own assumptions?
Collins:
It's mostly fiction. John and Connor Looney are real, and much of the
material involving them has some basis in reality, including the Gabel
shooting and Connor's eventual death...and several lieutenants who felt
betrayed by Looney. So the setting and historical underpinnings are
fairly real -- though Looney's reign was more in the teens and '20s -- but
the story of Michael O'Sullivan and his son is my invention.
Coville:
Did you at all contact Michael O'Sullivan while researching his father?
Collins:
He did not exist; I created him.
Coville:
Road to Perdition has a number of nifty lines like "God made
Irishmen pale, but not as pale as those priests who came out after
papa had unburdened his soul to them." Where you thinking about a
possible movie adaptation when writing?
Collins:
Thanks -- a sort of quiet poetry emerged from the narrator's distance from
the story. As for thinking about the movies, no more than usual -- but
comics, as a visual medium, has ties to film. As Will Eisner has aptly
pointed out, however, there are many differences between them.
Coville:
What is the current status of Road to Perdition? Does it have a publisher?
Collins:
ROAD TO PERDITION will be reprinted by DC in time for the movie's
release. The movie will probably have a limited late '01 release to
qualify for Oscars, then a wide one early in '02.
Coville:
Did DC give you a reason when they didn't resign the rights to the
book back when they had the chance?
Collins:
They still have reprint rights. It's just the other rights -- movie,
sequels, prequels, etc. -- that I own. (Actually, Richard and I own the
movie rights to ROAD.)
Coville:
What was your reaction when you learned that Sam Mendes and Tom
Hanks wanted to do Road to Perdition as a movie?
Collins:
I said I would believe it when I saw it. Having been on the set, and met
and talked to both Mendes and Hanks, I believe it now! And I'm thrilled.
Coville:
Were you at all involved in the making of the film?
Collins:
Not really. Visited the set, spoke frequently to Producer Dean
Zanuck, and have written a novelization. The script is good -- very
faithful, though it compresses the material and it's somewhat less
action-driven.
Coville:
Does the success of the film concern you at all?
Collins:
I don't quite know how to answer that. The bigger it is, the better
my future -- so, sure, it concerns me! If you mean, artistically, I
am convinced this will be a quality picture.
Coville:
Do you lie awake at nights thinking about the possibilities of your
future if the movie is a smash hit?
Collins:
Coville:
You've said in other interviews that you consider Road to Perdition
your comic writing swan song. Has that changed?
Collins:
Possibly. DC has spoken to me about doing a major BATMAN project. I
have been working solely on novels and screenplays, however; the
moribund status of the industry -- and my own disconnection from it,
for several years -- hasn't sent me scurrying to comics
publishers...or, frankly, vice versa. I thought I would get some calls
from comics editors/publishers, after ROAD got this major movie
deal...what could be bigger? The only editor who has called is Andy
Helfer, who edited ROAD, God bless him.
Coville:
There has been a lot of talk lately about how the comic industry
should move towards Graphic Novels and movie deals, although not
exactly hand in hand. Road to Perdition is a success in both areas but it
doesn't get the praise it should within the comic industry. Does that
disappoint you?
Collins:
That was largely why I walked away from comics. ROAD got almost no
reviews, and did not receive an Eisner nomination. If I could do my
best work, and get no notice whatsoever...well, it was a bitter pill. Many
people followed the lead that Terry Beatty and I took with MS. TREE, and
we've had zero recognition while lesser, trendier crap gets raves. My
attitude was, "Screw them." To some degree, frankly, it still is.
Coville:
Do you think Road to Perdition would have gotten more
reviews/praise/nominations if DC promoted it better? I tend to wonder if
the lack of response is directly related to the lack of marketing on DC's
part.
Collins:
DC did some limited promotion, but ROAD was the last of the Paradox
Press slate of crime novels, and the others had not done well. So we were
lucky to be published at all, and DC can't be faulted much. Where they
can be faulted is that some key high people at DC did not recognize the
quality of the work; if they had, they would not only have promoted it,
but would have matched the DreamWorks offer for movie rights (which
they could have done).
What is truly annoying to me is how DC has ignored Richard and myself,
and our work, when this is arguably the biggest comics movie ever...because
they are apparently embarrassed to have let ROAD "get away." If they
promoted us, and bragged about a DC project being this big Hollywood
deal, the people at Warner above them would ask embarrassing
questions...like, why isn't this a Warner Bros. movie?
Coville:
Do you think DC would have promoted it more if they had owned the
work, lock, stock, and barrel like they do Batman?
Collins:
Undoubtedly. But I don't think they knew what they had -- at least
one of the top people simply didn't "get" it. (Let me say that Paul
Levitz has been great to me and did in fact publish the book when
others in his position might not have.)
Coville:
WhatÂ’s the current situation with the rights to Ms. Tree. I know for a
while it was published through DC. Do they still own the character?
Collins:
Terry Beatty and I own MS. TREE, and we would love to do something
with her, after a several year lay-off (preferably a graphic novel).
A TV option is about to run out. We'll see.
Coville:
Any chance of putting out a TPB collecting your Ms. Tree work?
Collins:
Possible. We're available if anybody's interested. But I'm not sure
where the negatives are. The early stuff we don't have, and DC
controls the rest. I would love to see the DC stuff gathered, as I
feel it's our best work.
Coville:
You work in a lot of different storytelling arenas, mainly prose
novels, but also in film making and music. What can you do in comics
that can't be done in other forms of storytelling?
Collins:
That would require a book-length response that neither of us has time for.
I would say, however, that one aspect is the manner in which comics fall
between film and prose: film is an exterior medium -- shows us the story
from the outside -- and prose is an interior medium -- tells us the story
from inside. Comics is the only form that can gracefully give us both the
interior and exterior of a story (ROAD is a case in point). Words and
music, in other words...or rather, music and words. As Eisner has pointed
out, the manner in which images can be frozen, in effect...the emphasis
and rhythm that is possible, a manipulation of image that is quite beyond
film...makes comics a storytelling medium without peer. Unfortunately,
for cultural reasons, Americans will never understand that.
We just lost Johnny Craig. Did any newspaper in America cover that?
Coville:
You're best known for writing in the Crime genre, both novels and
comics. Do you have any desire to work in other genres?
Collins:
I have always been attracted to suspense and crime -- because of the
inherent conflict. (All good stories have a conflict at their heart.)
Most genres have these elements -- I wrote the novelizations of
WATERWORLD, a science-fiction story, and MAVERICK, a western,
without even thinking much about the fact that they weren't "mysteries."
I've written quite a bit of horror, for instance, because those same elements are there
to attract me: suspense, conflict, crime. There are more mainstream
subjects that interest me, too, but I would guess whatever tale I tell,
suspenseful conflict...some kind of tension, fear, crime element...is
going to be in there.
Coville:
Jim Steranko recently called right now the "Kervorkian Age of
Comics" saying there is too much violence in comics, linking them to
the recent terrorist attacks in NYC. He went as far as to call an
upcoming comic called PRO a "Terrorist Comic." As a writer who writes
scenes of violence, what is your response to this?
Collins:
Well, it's obviously hyperbole, and Steranko is if anything the master of
the grand gesture. My view is a little different. What I don't like
about comics and much of popular culture in recent years is a sort of
phony darkness -- a juvenile, arch darkness. "Darkness" isn't tattoos and
piercings and discordant music -- "darkness" is flying a fucking plane
into a building...that's true darkness, and it's not terribly
entertaining. I feel my work -- ANGEL IN BLACK, the latest Heller for
example -- is more legitimately dark, or anyway noir, than most of this
stuff. James Ellroy is the best example, of course...it's so childishly
dark; everybody's a dog-raping child molester or something. Laughable.
What's going to be interesting is seeing where popular culture goes.
Hollywood is re-releasing fluff like LEGALLY BLONDE and shelving the
new Arnold-kicks-terrorist-butt movie...but maybe Americans would like to
see Arnold kick some terrorist butt. About now a Mike Hammer novel with a
great over-the-top revenge ending might feel pretty good. But I'm relieved
to be a historical novelist at the moment -- the 20th Century seems like a
much safer canvas right now.
Coville:
What are you working on now?
Collins:
I just finished the novelization of ROAD, but I'm having trouble with
DreamWorks because the licensing person feels I've put in too much
material not in the script. The fact that I created this story and these
characters does not seem to sway this person. So that's a small
nightmare I'm wrestling with.
And I'm working on THE LUSITANIA MURDERS, another of my "disaster"
novels. Then I do the movie tie-in for THE SCORPION KING. Before the
end of the year you'll see two other recent works: WINDTALKERS, a John
Woo novelization, and the first CSI novel, DOUBLE DEALER.
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